[mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake

Jake JakeGrafton at gmx.de
Sun Jan 27 08:19:31 CST 2008 

I went with a stereo installation instead last year. ;)
This spring Ill get the clutch. I changed my mind on the FW, though. Ill 
take a LW one.

Jake
94TT BPU
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin F" <mfahie at supanet.com>
To: "'The MKIV.com National Mailing List'" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
Sent: Sunday, 27 January, 2008 15:09
Subject: RE: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake


> Just pulling a topic up from the dead here.........
>
> Jake, how did you get on with this setup?
>
> My stock clutch has given up at approx 67k and BPU and I'm currently
> considering options.
>
> Martin
> UK6TT +bits
>
> www.mkivsupraownersclub.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mkiv-bounces at mkiv.com [mailto:mkiv-bounces at mkiv.com] On Behalf Of 
> Jake
> Sent: 03 February 2007 22:58
> To: The MKIV.com National Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>
> I contacted Andy and he recommended me a kevlar TZ clutch with a custom PP
> (2700 lbs), which I am going to take.
> Im going to stick with the OEM flywheel because I am a little noise
> sensitive.
> Thanks again Steve, Lance and everyone else for your help.
>
> Jake
> 94TT BPU
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Flaim" <supraluvr at comcast.net>
> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
> Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2007 12:43
> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>
>
>> I'm glad we could help.  I just want you to make a decision based upon
>> some good criteria.
>> Words are all we got and they can make a big difference in expectations.
>> I didn't think you were
>> truly powershifting.  It's hard to make that quick a gear change with the
>> getrag.  What you are
>> saying you do should be fine.  I wish I had the opportunity to drive
>> Supras with other SBC
>> clutches in them too.
>> I would go with the LWFW myself, and Lance definitely would too.  It 
>> makes
>
>> a huge diference.
>> Even w/out tampering with the idle it isn't that bad.  A/C could make it
>> worse too.  Mine is gone
>> so I can't say for sure.  If it is really bothering you than push the
>> clutch pedal in.  The noise might
>> make other people think something is wrong, but when you leave them in 
>> the
>
>> dust....
>> Besides, you know better.
>> The problem with the ecu is it could end up fighting to drop the idle
>> depending on how you raise it.
>> I don't know how people do it as I don't have the factory ecu either.
>> Maybe you can fool it into thinking the a/c is on all the time?  Or
>> something with the power steering.
>> Somebody knows.  I just don't think you can turn an idle screw to idle it
>> up.  I could be wrong.
>> You could also just keep you foot on the gas a bit it you don't want to
>> push the clutch pedal in.
>>
>> I think all the SBC pressure plates are either oem or modified oem.  At
>> BPU there really isn't a
>> need for anything more. Just DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, mix and 
>> match
>
>> on your
>> own.  If you already have an RPS or ACT or TRD pp that is in good shape
>> that you would like to
>> use then send them the parts to inspect and to work with.  That is
>> definitely the way to do it.
>> Even if it looks new doesn't mean it isn't boogered up.
>>
>> Keep in mind that some oem clutches are just aweful to start with and can
>> really be improved.
>> Some pp's can be greatly improved, others can't.  Remember in the
>> descriptions of each stage for street or
>> track that they are talking about ALL cars, from 57 Chevys, to Bimmers,
>> Lexus, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Dodge, etc.
>> An SS for one app might give 50%, but for another might only net 10%.
>> Some cars need that 50% just to fix
>> the poor factory clutch so it can last more than 30k miles.  Some cars
>> come
>>>from the factory with some
>> really shitty clutches.
>>
>> So, look it over and talk to them.
>>
>> In your case a nice box from them with an Unorthodox or Fidanza FW, SBC
>> Kevlar disc and pp might be
>> the best way to go.  If you want stock pedal effort than tell them.
>> Smooth engagement, tell them.  Horsepower level,
>> tell them, don't just say BPU.
>> I think you have quite a headstart over many of their customers that call
>> in.
>>
>> Unfortunately, Glen may have exactly what he asked for because he 
>> believed
>
>> that is what he wanted.
>>
>> Like I said,
>> keep us posted as to what you do and how it works out.
>> That's how we all learn what's available.
>> Thanks and good luck,
>> Steve
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jake" <JakeGrafton at gmx.de>
>> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 3:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>>
>>
>>> Yes, Lance helped a lot. You did too. Right now I am pretty sure that I
>>> will get a SBC kevlar clutch. I am just still thinking whether to get an
>>> LWFW or the stock one. Since the stock one has to be replaced anyway
>>> money doesnt matter there. LWFWs are a bit cheaper actually.
>>> The noise is now the only reason for me not to get a LWFW. I had the
>>> dreaded OEM-flywheel-goes-bad sound once and I absolutely hated it. It
>>> was driving me mad and caused some sleepless nights because I didnt even
>>> know what caused it back then. Of course it was so bad that it didnt go
>>> away when I revved a little higher (stayed up to about 3k rpm). So I
>>> really dont know what to think about LWFWs. You saying that it sounds
>>> just like a bad OEM FW doesnt make things better. hehe.
>>> It prolly wouldnt matter if that sound wouldnt be there when upping the
>>> idle revs to 1000-1200. But Your statement that it might cause problems
>>> with the ECU made me hesitate even more.
>>>
>>> I dont powershift all the time. Only when I am in the mood. And its not
>>> real powershifting either. I dont keep the gas pedal floored while
>>> shifting.
>>> Powershifting was prolly the wrong word. Its just very quick shifting 
>>> and
>
>>> letting the clutch pop in.
>>>
>>> BTW, some SBC kits use a modified stock PP, right?
>>>
>>> Get well soon!
>>>
>>> Jake
>>> 94TT BPU
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Steve Flaim" <supraluvr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2007 08:18
>>> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the help Lance, Dave, Oolan.
>>>> Writing technical emails like this take me hours to compose.
>>>> I avoid them because I am not the clutch expert for materials, pp, or
>>>> flywheels.
>>>> Andy is, and that is why I point my stubby finger at him!!
>>>> Doesn't help that I have such a chest cold that I can barely stand.
>>>> You guys on this list are definitely more expert on the ecu, crank 
>>>> walk,
>
>>>> factory turbo system, BPU, etc., etc.
>>>> I know nothing, well, atleast I try not to put misinformation out 
>>>> there.
>>>> Lance, I know in my heart that someday you will have that ideal clutch
>>>> and it will come from SBC. :(
>>>>
>>>> Glen, I think if the aforementioned experts think back they will recall
>>>> that the experience you are having is not typical.
>>>> I'm not saying that SBC has never made a mistake, god knows they have
>>>> fixed a bunch of other's mistakes just to protect their reputation.  A
>>>> customer service business that is growing is a tough thing to manage.
>>>> The thing is, they will work with you to get it right.  Give them a
>>>> chance to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Jake,  Lance seems to have answered your questions, atleast to my
>>>> satisfaction.
>>>> So, basically you only baby the clutch in first.  Powershifting,
>>>> shifting with the gas pedal on the floor?  That's tough on clutches and
>>>> synchros too. You might want to stop doing that, or you will be talking
>>>> to Lance about the inadequate synchros stuffed into such a small box.
>>>> If you start launching with a 2-step don't come crying to me.  You 
>>>> might
>
>>>> be able to knock the glaze off the Kevlar with glass beads and be good
>>>> to go but I won't guarantee it.  I got 50+ passes with the Kevlar 
>>>> before
>
>>>> it wouldn't hook in 4th, without letting off the gas.  When I would
>>>> reaccelerate it wouldn't break free tho.  The guy I gave the deal to
>>>> screwed it up so I don't know if that works.  Andy might know tho.
>>>> Otherwise you night wish you had bought the stage 3, stage 4, or stage
>>>> 5. I think the street or track distinctions are only there for catalogs
>>>> and for people who read catalogs.  People feel more comfortable when
>>>> it's in a catalog.  I guess it is a necessary evil.  Andy is my 
>>>> catalog,
>
>>>> and he is always current...
>>>>
>>>>>>How much more power?  A Kevlar disc with everything else stock will
>>>>>>hold
>>>> more power.<<
>>>>
>>>>>BPU power levels as I said. I doubt I will ever go single with this 
>>>>>car.
>>>> Did I misunderstand something? I thought a stronger PP is needed too?<
>>>>
>>>> Yes you misunderstood, stronger pp is not required.  I think we have
>>>> stated that the totally factory oem clutch can hold BPU w/out any
>>>> problems, except for the driver.  Kevlar, with the stock pp will hold
>>>> more power than oem disc, and has those other great HEAT
>>>> characteristics.
>>>>
>>>>>>LWFW can cause the tranny to "rattle" at low rpms because it doesn't
>>>>>>have
>>>> the dampening of the harmonics that the stock flywheel has.  Upping the
>>>> idle
>>>> pretty much eliminates the rattle. The sprung hub doesn't have anything
>>>> to
>>>> do with tranny rattle.  They won't help at all.  I've messed with that.
>>>> The springs are to absorb driveline
>>>> shock which the oem flywheel is also designed to do.<<
>>>>
>>>>>Yeah, I know its the tranny that does the rattle but a LWFW causes it 
>>>>>to
>
>>>>>be heard.
>>>> Lots of people told me that LWFW rattle will be less when a sprung hub
>>>> is
>>>> used. Did they all talk out of their asses?<
>>>> Yes!!
>>>>
>>>>>The theory about LWFW being one of the causes of crank walk was
>>>>>explained to
>>>> me by this:
>>>> The OEM FW is balanced with the crank and the whole driveline, so when
>>>> it is
>>>> replaced by a LWFW that balance wont be there anymore. I knew stiff PPs
>>>> were
>>>> the cause aswell, but this LWFW explanation sounded logical to me
>>>> aswell. I
>>>> also heard other theories like LW pulleys causing it too.
>>>> I know these are only theories since still no one really knows 100% 
>>>> what
>>>> causes crank walk on our cars, but as I said I dont want to take any
>>>> chances.<
>>>> All the balancing crap above is as Lance says, total horseshit.
>>>> I can't believe that Toyota can't handle 10-15% stiffer clutch pedal.
>>>> I start my car with the clutch engaged, car in neutral, clutch pedal 
>>>> sw/
>
>>>> bypassed as the others here have advised.
>>>> Lance has a bunch of miles on his car and he dosn't seem to be worried
>>>> about it.
>>>> Make sure that you do not replace your crank pulley with one that is 
>>>> not
>
>>>> designed to handle the harmonics.
>>>> If you don't spend $400-$500 for the crank pulley than just leave the
>>>> stock on one.  Skimping is truly a stupid way
>>>> to unleash 5 HP.  I have an aftermarket for dragracing rule 
>>>> requirements
>
>>>> only, and it is not just a piece of aluminum.
>>>>
>>>>>So there is no real decrease in driving comfort when using a LWFW? Lots
>>>>>of
>>>> LWFW users reported that they dont like it as a daily driver.<
>>>> No decrease in comfort.  They don't deserve to modify a car, let alone 
>>>> a
>
>>>> Supra, if they can't modify you launch so slightly.  Probably should
>>>> stick with an auto.  No offense guys...
>>>> Like I said, your gdma or gf wouldn't even notice the difference.  They
>>>> would stall it the first time or overslip it just like they always do.
>>>>
>>>>>I wish I could simply drive a Supra with LWFW once. Or at least hear
>>>>>it.<
>>>> Any car with a LWFW should do for your comparision.  When the factory
>>>> flywheel goes bad it will sound somewhat like a LWFW, that is how you
>>>> know it is going bad, right Lance?
>>>>
>>>> <Jake
>>>> 94TT BPU<
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like you want a Kevlar disc, stock pp with stock clamping
>>>> force, stock flywheel.
>>>>
>>>> If you go with a LWFW you go with the puckstyle instead of the oem
>>>> "marcells" style  because the puckstyle can be sprung, and the pp may
>>>> have to be modified to allow for the thicker disc, even if it became a
>>>> bit stiffer you would hardly notice it.
>>>> I have a 88 SC MR2 beater that takes probably 50% more pedal effort 
>>>> than
>
>>>> wifes '04 Civic.  When I hop in the Civic I about put my foot thru the
>>>> floor.  Feels like it is broken...
>>>>
>>>> Also, Andy might have a different material than Kevlar.  And if your
>>>> needs change, you can change the disc and keep your LWFW which should
>>>> have no wear on it, and your pp should be like new too, no real wear or
>>>> heat damage unless you put 100k or 200k miles on it before changing the
>>>> disc.
>>>>
>>>> Let us know what you decide.  If you go with SBC you will probably go
>>>> with SBC again.  If you go with someone else, you will probably come
>>>> back to SBC in the future. :)
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Oolan Zimmer" <ozimmer at softhome.net>
>>>> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:41 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dave Henry wrote:
>>>>>> Another tip I use to help eliminate the possibility of crankwalk with
>>>>>> a stiff pressure plate is to disconnect the clutch safety switch and
>>>>>> always start the car *without* depressing the clutch.  This allows 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> motor to spin and get oil in the thrust bearing before you put
>>>>>> pressure on it with the clutch.  The downside is that you have to be
>>>>>> on your toes every time you start the car, there is the possibility 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the car lurching forward if you screw up and hit the starter with the
>>>>>> car in gear and the clutch not engaged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave Henry
>>>>>> www.boostwerx.com
>>>>>> 701-730-6313
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A few thoughts...
>>>>>
>>>>> First, I've used the starter to move a car onto a lift when it 
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> start.  For most cars, first gear is short enough that the car moves
>>>>> pretty slowly at cranking speed (and idle, for that matter).
>>>>>
>>>>> If you always press the brake before turning the ignition, if the car
>>>>> is
>>>>> in gear, and the clutch is out, the car will neither start nor move
>>>>> (much).  I've yet to see a starter more powerful than brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be pretty easy to replace the interlock on the clutch pedal
>>>>> with one on the gear shifter.  Use two normally closed switches in
>>>>> series in place of the current interlock.  Both switches go under the
>>>>> center console.  Place one so that when the shift linkage is forward 
>>>>> of
>>>>> neutral position, it's engaged (open).   Place the other so that when
>>>>> the shift linkage is backward of neutral position, it's engaged 
>>>>> (open).
>>>>> Since this is just measuring the position of a rod that moves back and
>>>>> forth (and twists), making the switches engage should be easy.  You
>>>>> could also do it optically or with security system magnet switches in
>>>>> more difficult environments.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Oolan Zimmer
>>>>> ozimmer at softhome.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mkiv mailing list
>>>>> Mkiv at mkiv.com
>>>>> http://www.mkiv.com/mailman/listinfo/mkiv
>>>>
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