[mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake

[Martin F]

Just pulling a topic up from the dead here.........

Jake, how did you get on with this setup? 

My stock clutch has given up at approx 67k and BPU and I'm currently
considering options.

Martin
UK6TT +bits

www.mkivsupraownersclub.com




-----Original Message-----
From: mkiv-bounces at mkiv.com [mailto:mkiv-bounces at mkiv.com] On Behalf Of Jake
Sent: 03 February 2007 22:58
To: The MKIV.com National Mailing List
Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake

I contacted Andy and he recommended me a kevlar TZ clutch with a custom PP 
(2700 lbs), which I am going to take.
Im going to stick with the OEM flywheel because I am a little noise 
sensitive.
Thanks again Steve, Lance and everyone else for your help.

Jake
94TT BPU

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Flaim" <supraluvr at comcast.net>
To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2007 12:43
Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake


> I'm glad we could help.  I just want you to make a decision based upon 
> some good criteria.
> Words are all we got and they can make a big difference in expectations. 
> I didn't think you were
> truly powershifting.  It's hard to make that quick a gear change with the 
> getrag.  What you are
> saying you do should be fine.  I wish I had the opportunity to drive 
> Supras with other SBC
> clutches in them too.
> I would go with the LWFW myself, and Lance definitely would too.  It makes

> a huge diference.
> Even w/out tampering with the idle it isn't that bad.  A/C could make it 
> worse too.  Mine is gone
> so I can't say for sure.  If it is really bothering you than push the 
> clutch pedal in.  The noise might
> make other people think something is wrong, but when you leave them in the

> dust....
> Besides, you know better.
> The problem with the ecu is it could end up fighting to drop the idle 
> depending on how you raise it.
> I don't know how people do it as I don't have the factory ecu either.
> Maybe you can fool it into thinking the a/c is on all the time?  Or 
> something with the power steering.
> Somebody knows.  I just don't think you can turn an idle screw to idle it 
> up.  I could be wrong.
> You could also just keep you foot on the gas a bit it you don't want to 
> push the clutch pedal in.
>
> I think all the SBC pressure plates are either oem or modified oem.  At 
> BPU there really isn't a
> need for anything more. Just DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, mix and match

> on your
> own.  If you already have an RPS or ACT or TRD pp that is in good shape 
> that you would like to
> use then send them the parts to inspect and to work with.  That is 
> definitely the way to do it.
> Even if it looks new doesn't mean it isn't boogered up.
>
> Keep in mind that some oem clutches are just aweful to start with and can 
> really be improved.
> Some pp's can be greatly improved, others can't.  Remember in the 
> descriptions of each stage for street or
> track that they are talking about ALL cars, from 57 Chevys, to Bimmers, 
> Lexus, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Dodge, etc.
> An SS for one app might give 50%, but for another might only net 10%. 
> Some cars need that 50% just to fix
> the poor factory clutch so it can last more than 30k miles.  Some cars 
> come
>>from the factory with some
> really shitty clutches.
>
> So, look it over and talk to them.
>
> In your case a nice box from them with an Unorthodox or Fidanza FW, SBC 
> Kevlar disc and pp might be
> the best way to go.  If you want stock pedal effort than tell them. 
> Smooth engagement, tell them.  Horsepower level,
> tell them, don't just say BPU.
> I think you have quite a headstart over many of their customers that call 
> in.
>
> Unfortunately, Glen may have exactly what he asked for because he believed

> that is what he wanted.
>
> Like I said,
> keep us posted as to what you do and how it works out.
> That's how we all learn what's available.
> Thanks and good luck,
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jake" <JakeGrafton at gmx.de>
> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 3:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>
>
>> Yes, Lance helped a lot. You did too. Right now I am pretty sure that I 
>> will get a SBC kevlar clutch. I am just still thinking whether to get an 
>> LWFW or the stock one. Since the stock one has to be replaced anyway 
>> money doesnt matter there. LWFWs are a bit cheaper actually.
>> The noise is now the only reason for me not to get a LWFW. I had the 
>> dreaded OEM-flywheel-goes-bad sound once and I absolutely hated it. It 
>> was driving me mad and caused some sleepless nights because I didnt even 
>> know what caused it back then. Of course it was so bad that it didnt go 
>> away when I revved a little higher (stayed up to about 3k rpm). So I 
>> really dont know what to think about LWFWs. You saying that it sounds 
>> just like a bad OEM FW doesnt make things better. hehe.
>> It prolly wouldnt matter if that sound wouldnt be there when upping the 
>> idle revs to 1000-1200. But Your statement that it might cause problems 
>> with the ECU made me hesitate even more.
>>
>> I dont powershift all the time. Only when I am in the mood. And its not 
>> real powershifting either. I dont keep the gas pedal floored while 
>> shifting.
>> Powershifting was prolly the wrong word. Its just very quick shifting and

>> letting the clutch pop in.
>>
>> BTW, some SBC kits use a modified stock PP, right?
>>
>> Get well soon!
>>
>> Jake
>> 94TT BPU
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Steve Flaim" <supraluvr at comcast.net>
>> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
>> Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2007 08:18
>> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>>
>>
>>> Thanks for the help Lance, Dave, Oolan.
>>> Writing technical emails like this take me hours to compose.
>>> I avoid them because I am not the clutch expert for materials, pp, or 
>>> flywheels.
>>> Andy is, and that is why I point my stubby finger at him!!
>>> Doesn't help that I have such a chest cold that I can barely stand.
>>> You guys on this list are definitely more expert on the ecu, crank walk,

>>> factory turbo system, BPU, etc., etc.
>>> I know nothing, well, atleast I try not to put misinformation out there.
>>> Lance, I know in my heart that someday you will have that ideal clutch 
>>> and it will come from SBC. :(
>>>
>>> Glen, I think if the aforementioned experts think back they will recall 
>>> that the experience you are having is not typical.
>>> I'm not saying that SBC has never made a mistake, god knows they have 
>>> fixed a bunch of other's mistakes just to protect their reputation.  A 
>>> customer service business that is growing is a tough thing to manage. 
>>> The thing is, they will work with you to get it right.  Give them a 
>>> chance to do so.
>>>
>>> Jake,  Lance seems to have answered your questions, atleast to my 
>>> satisfaction.
>>> So, basically you only baby the clutch in first.  Powershifting, 
>>> shifting with the gas pedal on the floor?  That's tough on clutches and 
>>> synchros too. You might want to stop doing that, or you will be talking 
>>> to Lance about the inadequate synchros stuffed into such a small box.
>>> If you start launching with a 2-step don't come crying to me.  You might

>>> be able to knock the glaze off the Kevlar with glass beads and be good 
>>> to go but I won't guarantee it.  I got 50+ passes with the Kevlar before

>>> it wouldn't hook in 4th, without letting off the gas.  When I would 
>>> reaccelerate it wouldn't break free tho.  The guy I gave the deal to 
>>> screwed it up so I don't know if that works.  Andy might know tho. 
>>> Otherwise you night wish you had bought the stage 3, stage 4, or stage 
>>> 5. I think the street or track distinctions are only there for catalogs 
>>> and for people who read catalogs.  People feel more comfortable when 
>>> it's in a catalog.  I guess it is a necessary evil.  Andy is my catalog,

>>> and he is always current...
>>>
>>>>>How much more power?  A Kevlar disc with everything else stock will 
>>>>>hold
>>> more power.<<
>>>
>>>>BPU power levels as I said. I doubt I will ever go single with this car.
>>> Did I misunderstand something? I thought a stronger PP is needed too?<
>>>
>>> Yes you misunderstood, stronger pp is not required.  I think we have 
>>> stated that the totally factory oem clutch can hold BPU w/out any 
>>> problems, except for the driver.  Kevlar, with the stock pp will hold 
>>> more power than oem disc, and has those other great HEAT 
>>> characteristics.
>>>
>>>>>LWFW can cause the tranny to "rattle" at low rpms because it doesn't 
>>>>>have
>>> the dampening of the harmonics that the stock flywheel has.  Upping the 
>>> idle
>>> pretty much eliminates the rattle. The sprung hub doesn't have anything 
>>> to
>>> do with tranny rattle.  They won't help at all.  I've messed with that. 
>>> The springs are to absorb driveline
>>> shock which the oem flywheel is also designed to do.<<
>>>
>>>>Yeah, I know its the tranny that does the rattle but a LWFW causes it to

>>>>be heard.
>>> Lots of people told me that LWFW rattle will be less when a sprung hub 
>>> is
>>> used. Did they all talk out of their asses?<
>>> Yes!!
>>>
>>>>The theory about LWFW being one of the causes of crank walk was 
>>>>explained to
>>> me by this:
>>> The OEM FW is balanced with the crank and the whole driveline, so when 
>>> it is
>>> replaced by a LWFW that balance wont be there anymore. I knew stiff PPs 
>>> were
>>> the cause aswell, but this LWFW explanation sounded logical to me 
>>> aswell. I
>>> also heard other theories like LW pulleys causing it too.
>>> I know these are only theories since still no one really knows 100% what
>>> causes crank walk on our cars, but as I said I dont want to take any
>>> chances.<
>>> All the balancing crap above is as Lance says, total horseshit.
>>> I can't believe that Toyota can't handle 10-15% stiffer clutch pedal.
>>> I start my car with the clutch engaged, car in neutral, clutch pedal sw/

>>> bypassed as the others here have advised.
>>> Lance has a bunch of miles on his car and he dosn't seem to be worried 
>>> about it.
>>> Make sure that you do not replace your crank pulley with one that is not

>>> designed to handle the harmonics.
>>> If you don't spend $400-$500 for the crank pulley than just leave the 
>>> stock on one.  Skimping is truly a stupid way
>>> to unleash 5 HP.  I have an aftermarket for dragracing rule requirements

>>> only, and it is not just a piece of aluminum.
>>>
>>>>So there is no real decrease in driving comfort when using a LWFW? Lots 
>>>>of
>>> LWFW users reported that they dont like it as a daily driver.<
>>> No decrease in comfort.  They don't deserve to modify a car, let alone a

>>> Supra, if they can't modify you launch so slightly.  Probably should 
>>> stick with an auto.  No offense guys...
>>> Like I said, your gdma or gf wouldn't even notice the difference.  They 
>>> would stall it the first time or overslip it just like they always do.
>>>
>>>>I wish I could simply drive a Supra with LWFW once. Or at least hear 
>>>>it.<
>>> Any car with a LWFW should do for your comparision.  When the factory 
>>> flywheel goes bad it will sound somewhat like a LWFW, that is how you 
>>> know it is going bad, right Lance?
>>>
>>> <Jake
>>> 94TT BPU<
>>>
>>> It sounds like you want a Kevlar disc, stock pp with stock clamping 
>>> force, stock flywheel.
>>>
>>> If you go with a LWFW you go with the puckstyle instead of the oem 
>>> "marcells" style  because the puckstyle can be sprung, and the pp may 
>>> have to be modified to allow for the thicker disc, even if it became a 
>>> bit stiffer you would hardly notice it.
>>> I have a 88 SC MR2 beater that takes probably 50% more pedal effort than

>>> wifes '04 Civic.  When I hop in the Civic I about put my foot thru the 
>>> floor.  Feels like it is broken...
>>>
>>> Also, Andy might have a different material than Kevlar.  And if your 
>>> needs change, you can change the disc and keep your LWFW which should 
>>> have no wear on it, and your pp should be like new too, no real wear or 
>>> heat damage unless you put 100k or 200k miles on it before changing the 
>>> disc.
>>>
>>> Let us know what you decide.  If you go with SBC you will probably go 
>>> with SBC again.  If you go with someone else, you will probably come 
>>> back to SBC in the future. :)
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Oolan Zimmer" <ozimmer at softhome.net>
>>> To: "The MKIV.com National Mailing List" <mkiv at mkiv.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [mkiv] Clutch - which one for BPU? -- Jake
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dave Henry wrote:
>>>>> Another tip I use to help eliminate the possibility of crankwalk with
>>>>> a stiff pressure plate is to disconnect the clutch safety switch and
>>>>> always start the car *without* depressing the clutch.  This allows the
>>>>> motor to spin and get oil in the thrust bearing before you put
>>>>> pressure on it with the clutch.  The downside is that you have to be
>>>>> on your toes every time you start the car, there is the possibility of
>>>>> the car lurching forward if you screw up and hit the starter with the
>>>>> car in gear and the clutch not engaged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Henry
>>>>> www.boostwerx.com
>>>>> 701-730-6313
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A few thoughts...
>>>>
>>>> First, I've used the starter to move a car onto a lift when it wouldn't
>>>> start.  For most cars, first gear is short enough that the car moves
>>>> pretty slowly at cranking speed (and idle, for that matter).
>>>>
>>>> If you always press the brake before turning the ignition, if the car 
>>>> is
>>>> in gear, and the clutch is out, the car will neither start nor move
>>>> (much).  I've yet to see a starter more powerful than brakes.
>>>>
>>>> It would be pretty easy to replace the interlock on the clutch pedal
>>>> with one on the gear shifter.  Use two normally closed switches in
>>>> series in place of the current interlock.  Both switches go under the
>>>> center console.  Place one so that when the shift linkage is forward of
>>>> neutral position, it's engaged (open).   Place the other so that when
>>>> the shift linkage is backward of neutral position, it's engaged (open).
>>>> Since this is just measuring the position of a rod that moves back and
>>>> forth (and twists), making the switches engage should be easy.  You
>>>> could also do it optically or with security system magnet switches in
>>>> more difficult environments.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Oolan Zimmer
>>>> ozimmer at softhome.net
>>>>
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